Natural News -- "65-year-old senior citizen James Stewart, a California farmer with no criminal history, was nearly tortured to death in the LA County jail this past week. He survived a "week of torturous Hell" at the hands of LA County jail keepers who subjected him to starvation, sleep deprivation, hypothermia, loss of blood circulation to extremities, verbal intimidation, involuntary medical testing and even subjected him to over 30 hours of raw biological sewage filth containing dangerous pathogens."
MP: What was his alleged criminal activity? Selling fresh, unpasteurized raw milk. Bail for "The Milk Man" was set at $1 million. By comparison, bail for alleged child rapist Jerry Sandusky, former Penn State sports coach, was set at $100,000.
"NaturalNews is calling upon Amnesty International and the American Civil Liberties Union to intervene in this extraordinary violation of basic human rights. For the record, James Stewart has no criminal record and is a permaculture farmer and fresh food advocate. His "crime" consists entirely of arranging for the distribution of raw milk to customers who actually line up to access this nourishing food (people love it!)."
Meanwhile, Natural News is reporting separately that:
"France, on the other hand, has embraced the health benefits of raw milk. There, innovative dairy farmer Michel Cantaloube has created a raw milk vending machine (see photo above). The vending machine is a tastefully-designed kiosk that blends right into the urban setting, allowing it to be set up on a street corner on a French town or even a major metropolitan area."
MP: Isn't this backwards? We always hear about France being an example of heavy-handed government bureaucracy and "European-style socialism," but that seems to more accurately describe California's approach in this case while France takes the "laissez-faire" approach.
Update: Great comment from morganovich, "Raw milk is illegal due to health fears but cigarettes, one of the biggest health risks in the country, are one of the most widely distributed products in the U.S.?"
73 Comments:
We always hear about France being an example of heavy-handed government bureaucracy and "European-style socialism
To be fair, lots of people say the same about CA.
Bail for "The Milk Man" was set at $1 million. By comparison, bail for alleged child rapist Jerry Sandusky, former Penn State sports coach, was set at $100,000.
As you can imagine, politicians feel far more threatened by entrepreneurs and free actors than rapists. The former is a direct assault on the need for their power, the latter provides great opportunities for expansion of powers.
Ken: "As you can imagine, politicians feel far more threatened by entrepreneurs and free actors than rapists. The former is a direct assault on the need for their power, the latter provides great opportunities for expansion of powers."
I believe you have nailed it.
GEEZE! If you start out asking if there should be no regulations at all on food produced on farms - most folks would not agree that there should be no regulations at all.
So most people support some level of regulation for safe food practices.
From that point on - it becomes a conundrum about what should and should not.
the jail story was comical.
anyone who goes to jail, regardless of reason, could be said to have to suffer such "indignities".
They might as well report the entire us jail system to Amnesty International!
the "milk" issue has been making the anti-govt rounds lately.
funny... where are all these folks on mad cow disease? AWOL, eh?
Quote from Larry G: "... - most folks would not agree that there should be no regulations at all."
They kidnapped a man for selling milk. Milk that the buyers knew perfectly well what they were buying, in fact were buying because of what it was.
But some self-righteous bureaucrat thinks this is threatening society, and gets some equally self-righteous thugs (I mean the 'criminal justice system') to kidnap him and imprison him in conditions that almost kill him, and you're defending this the "regulation of safe food practices".
Quote from Larry G: "... - most folks would not agree that there should be no regulations at all."
They kidnapped a man for selling milk. Milk that the buyers knew perfectly well what they were buying, in fact were buying because of what it was.
But some self-righteous bureaucrat thinks this is threatening society, and gets some equally self-righteous thugs (I mean the 'criminal justice system') to kidnap him and imprison him in conditions that almost kill him, and you're defending this the "regulation of safe food practices".
the question - do you think there should be NO regulation of food from farms?
yes or no.
re: "kidnapped".. what a triple load of guano....
he was no more "kidnapped" than those selling pirated software from their car trunks.
he got the same exact treatment that ALL accused lawbreakers get.
Ok...What exactly in raw milk, why does it deserve a $1 million bail, and why is it illegal to sell in CA?
the bail has nothing to do with the charges ..they vary by judge and other factors - unrelated to the specific charge.
raw milk can have pathogens in it that can harm people - depending on the circumstances.
it's one of hundreds/thousands of footstuffs that come from farms that has the potential to harm people.
the question is - not whether or not raw milk should be regulated but whether or not there is justification to regulate farm foodstuffs.
If your answer is yes - then the argument shifts to what kinds of regs you support and which ones you oppose but with the caveat that you do DO support the concept of regulation in general.
MOST PEOPLE SUPPORT regulation of foodstuffs in general and that it be done by the government even if they disagree with some of the specific regs.
for instance, would you support farmers who wanted to add pig/cow brains to animal feed and not have government regulation on doing that?
It seems to me that a person should only be punished for something that he actually did that directly caused harm upon another individual (or group), not something he may do.
I find a $1 million bail for a potential crime is a little...extreme. It seems to me this regulation is excessive.
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Larry G - Food regulation is needed for mass packaged food stuff's that you purchase in a store. I have no access to Tyson's Food and cannot purchase chicken directly from them. However, if I want to go to someone's farm and see their operation and buy their products, then I should be able to do that without any interference from the government, I can make my own damn mind up. Then I take the chance with any food borne illnesses I might get. But the choice is mine after I weigh the facts not some idiot bureaucrat is trying to protect me from myself.
That's the difference. And putting the guy in jail with a million dollar bail is egregious, if people can't voluntarily decide what is right for them, is there anything that the government can't tell you to do. Just asking?
never underestimate the power and viciousness of the FDA and USDA.
the USDA is just an advocacy group for farming interests.
the last thing they want to for the public to realize that pasteurization takes an enormous amount of nutritional value away from milk.
for those that doubt this, try drinking raw milk some time. you will literally feel the difference in minutes.
this "it's too dangerous" argument is just plain stupid.
any food CAN have pathogens. shall we demand that all sushi be cooked? ban rare beef? require that chicken be sold cooked so you don't handle it raw?
further, it's none of their damn business.
if i prefer raw milk and realize it may have more risks, well, that's up to me to decide.
why do they get to tell me wheat the right risk reward is? i am not harming others, just me. of course, they will then try to use the "we have to pay for your medical care" argument which is why socialized medicine leads to/justifies fascist social policy.
hey, hockey causes injuries too. if milk is too big a danger, surely we need to do something about hockey, football, etc. let's force all those guys to ride stationary bikes (much safer than going outside) instead.
raw milk is illegal due to health fears but cigarettes, one of the biggest health risks in the country, are the best distributed product in the US after soda?
(note: i'm not arguing for banning cigarettes, just for consistency in standards)
this is the current diary guys going after a better tasting and healthier product with which they cannot easily compete and trying to protect the huge investments they have made in processing equipment and the barriers to entry it creates.
this is NOT a health issue. lots of countries allow for unprocessed diary and, like france, get few negative effects and much healthier dairy and delicious cheeses as a result.
I think there may be the case for making the sellers of food properly declare what they are selling.
It seems to me that there the reason to regulate what people are buying is actually less clear-cut; obviously, the people trying to buy milk wouldn't want the government to regulate milk buying; so they wouldn't probably agree with you.
the last 10 years have been occupied with dozens/hundreds of cases of foodstuffs that have caused illness and death...
and the vast majority of Americans have demanded that more regulations be put in place.
no one answered the question about feeding animal brains to cattle and pigs...
do you want it to be illegal or do you care if a farmer says he does not do it but he does and refuses to disclose it to you?
do you want the govt to make it illegal for him to lie to you about what he does or does not do to food he sells you?
no waffling here.
answer truthfully.
do you truly want the govt totally out of this game?
time to man up.
be honest. be truthful.
what's your answer?
I'll answer, Larry.
The government should be out, completely. This is for one simple reason: greed.
The goal of anyone who runs a business is only to make a profit. The farmer who tries to cut costs by using tainted meat or endangering the quality of his meat will not be in the business too long. He will have a hard time selling to companies if his meat is known to be tainted or have a history. Furthermore, companies will be hesitant to buy from someone who uses bad practices.
Reputation and the profit motive are extremely powerful incentives. I suggest we stop perverting them and let them work.
If the government wants to public guidelines about how to raise and process foodstuff, that's fine. But to enforce them based on things that could go wrong is not only arbitrary but also unconstitutional (in my admittedly narrow interpretation). Companies and individuals only make profit when they product the supply is good. If they supply a substandard product, they will find themselves bankrupt very quickly.
To head off the expected question, if someone consumes tainted meat, I think they should have the right to sue in court and prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the meat was tainted on purpose and no accident occurred.
As an aside, I had some raw milk at lunch (farm stand across the street sells it). That stuff is wicked good!
larry-
that's easy.
yes. i want them totally out of the game.
who cares what most people want? they can do as they like. most people do not want to buy a mancub album either. great. they do not have to. but i should be able to if i want.
don't like raw milk? super. don't drink it. want organic peas? buy em. don;t care? pay less for other ones.
label everything as what it is, and let folks make choices.
brands, freedom, and honest labels are all you need, specially in the internet age.
brands exist for consumer protection. i trust porsche far more than i trust the us DOT. i get all kinds of food from local farms. i trust them more than the USDA. one bad event, and they would be toast.
this:
"and the vast majority of Americans have demanded that more regulations be put in place."
is just a defense of tyranny. tyranny of the majority is still tyranny.
what business of yours is it what i eat? i can live only on pringles and diet coke quite legally, but trying to drink raw as part of a high nutrition diet milk is a crime?
i can eat cheeze wiz, but not a raw milk camebert? you think that's sane?
hey, you want cheese wiz, eat it. i never would, but i respect your right to. it's far less healthful than raw milk. i don't even know if you can digest that stuff, but hey, it's an individual call.
the USDA was created as a marketing organization. that pyramid they built is neither healthy nor accurate. they did it to sell dairy and grains. it's a marketing tool.
they are trying to limit my freedom to protect investments in pasteurization equipment and to keep out imports of better tasting raw milk cheeses.
you seem to think you were throwing down some trump card challenge, but your question is simple to answer.
ban the USDA, not raw milk.
they can point out health risks if they like and farmers/producers can decide if they agree and label where they stand. store buyers will stay on top of such things and decide what they think matters.
thus, you get multiple layers of self interested folks looking out for you because it is in their best interest to do it. that's how you get high quality and choice, not dictates from on high handed down by an unaccountable bureaucrat who has no idea of and less concern over your individual preferences.
one size does not fit all.
we should make our own choices about risk/reward/preference.
i don't want to be you and as far as i know, you do not want to be me, so great, let's be us and each do what we want instead of forcing one set of rules on both of us.
i suspect potato chips and mountian dew do 100 times the harm of raw milk every year, but hey, freedom of choice comes with consequences.
jon-
yeah, it's delicious, isn't it?
once you taste it, you realize how screwed up pasteurization makes milk and how bad tasting.
if you can find it, you might wanna try some raw goat milk. i think it's even better. it makes AMAZING cappuccino.
pasteurization might have made more sense when refrigeration was uncommon, but in an age of reefer trucks, cold cases, and ubiquitous home refrigerators, it's an antiquated process long past its sell by date.
"and the vast majority of Americans have demanded that more regulations be put in place."
i think it's irrelevant, even if true, but i'm curious, what's your evidence for that claim?
my experience has been quite the opposite with people mostly feeling like they were trumped up scares that blew the risks WAY out of proportion.
look at mad cow. almost no one was affected. more people died in that period from lightning strikes.
it was just hysteria to sell papers and grab budgets for more regulation.
my sense is most people know that.
ondra: "I think there may be the case for making the sellers of food properly declare what they are selling."
In this case it's pretty clear, he was selling raw milk.
I can't recall an instance of buying raw milk that turned out to be something else.
Every time I've bought bananas, they turned out to be bananas, never apples or jalapenos.
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""and the vast majority of Americans have demanded that more regulations be put in place."
i think it's irrelevant, even if true, but i'm curious, what's your evidence for that claim?"
Can't wait to see this!
Larry, please don't confuse politicians and regulators flexing their political muscle, with what people actually want.
I think most people want to make their own choices, and don't want their mommies to tell them what they can or can't eat, but I'm open to evidence I'm wrong.
morganovich: "yeah, it's delicious, isn't it?
once you taste it, you realize how screwed up pasteurization makes milk and how bad tasting"
Absolutely.
I now go out of my way to buy raw milk to support raw milk producers, and to protest this kind of horrendous government overreach.
More despicable behavior by CA government! If health is the real concern, why not outlaw cigarettes?
One guess: government collects big tax revenues on cigs.
When will government start treating citizens with appropriate respect?
The milk guy was not being deceitful in vending raw milk and his customers knew exactly what they were getting - yet this over-reaching govt must insert itself in a most heavy-handed manner.
Individual freedom is taking a backseat to socialist tyranny and it is only getting worse.
@Morg
View of federal regulations in these areas …
Food production & packaging
53 Strengthen
36 Keep as are
7 Reduce
http://goo.gl/WdUS9 Page 3
Since I grew up on the farm and drank raw milk for years with never a problem and actually found a farmer who would sell raw milk once I lived in the city, I again was able to enjoy the freshness and taste of a whole food not destroyed by processing.
I thought some years back CA. had established a CERTIFIED RAW MILK standard, and that is really the issue, cleanliness and proper refrigeration.
It is a rather silly argument that raw milk is somehow a dangerous food and testing for pathogens is not that difficult. I agree with other posters that I do not need some government bureaucrat to tell me what I can or can not eat or drink, there is plenty enough real junk being passed of as "food" they could protect the consumer by banning.
The WORST part for me is that through socialized medicine I pay taxes to pay for the treatment of fully preventable illnesses with just a little common sense and intelligent choice of NATURAL unprocessed food, but junk food and junk medicine are part of the same profit motivated industry that cares not a fig about good health or consumer benefit.
At 74 I have never been to a medical doctor in my adult life, have not lost a day of work due to illness or taken any of the poisonous drugs they would prescribe. If they want to put somebody out of business it should be the purveyors of DRUGS>
but the question was - do you want no regulation at all for ALL food,including milk ...
or do you support regulation but disagree with parts of it?
as I provided evidence for - 89% of people surveyed support regulation of food.
I grew up on raw dairy milk. That is fresh milk that we scooped the cream from the top of to reduce the fat content before stirring it in. I drank about 1 gallon a day during my high school years, as did each of my 3 brothers. I never had any colds or other illnesses until I left the farm and went to college.
In my experience, if the milk is handed with proper care, there is little chance of sickness.
Next thing you know, it will become law that all meats need to be fully cooked before a person can purchase them at the local market!
Having been used to raw milk as a teenager on the farm, once I married and moved to the city I raised my own children on raw milk after finding a farmer taking the legal risk of selling it. Never had a problem and to this day i will not drink the swill that results after the "food destroyers" are done with it.
I agree with all the posters that made the point that they do not need some government bureaucrat to tell them what they can or cannot eat or drink. Intelligent and educated people want REAL FOOD uncontaminated by processing, natural food that will spoil, not plastic non foods that are so filled with chemicals no self respecting bug would eat them.
It was my impression years ago that Ca. was one of the progressive states that had enacted a CERTIFIED RAW MILK program that involved regular inspection of producers to be sure that it met rigorous standards the same as nutritionally inferior milk that has been pasteurized. If a dairy farmer practices the high standards of cleanliness necessary to produce clean milk then killing pathogens is redundant.
There is plenty enough "JUNK FOOD" out there that SHOULD be regulated, or preferably taken off the market that could keep all the interfering useless bureaucrats busy instead of harassing people trying to meet the DEMAND for quality food.
Call me a food nut if you will but I prefer and will pay more for organic, natural foods with high nutritional value over the processed, packaged and boxed crap that fills the average supermarket shelf.
Having been an organic gardener my whole life I can attest to the fact that there is a reason that cancer, heart disease, diabetes and dozens more killers are labelled as "lifestyle diseases" because they are almost totally PREVENTABLE with some intelligent attention to food choices and good nutrition.
At 74 I have never taken a drug in my adult life or even been to a medical doctor, the majority of which know so little about nutrition or its role in preventing disease it is pathetic. You don't get a headache because of a lack of aspirin, ditto for all other harmful and potentially poisonous drugs, they are not the answer to good health, all they do is mask symptoms or alter normal bodily functions with consequences unknown.
It is time we educated people on how to take personal responsibility for their health by eating a sensible diet instead or relying on drugs to alleviate their self induced aches and pains.
> as I provided evidence for - 89%
> of people surveyed support
> regulation of food.
At one point, perhaps 89% of people supported the institution of slavery. Did that make it right?
The government should protect against fraud (raw milk not labelled as raw; pasteurized milk not labelled as pasteurized) but should otherwise stay out of consensual transactions between willing buyers and sellers.
re: 89% and "slavery".
maybe...
but that's a very large percentage that stretches both North and South as opposed to the North being against the South.
the question asked also was this:
" do you want no regulation at all for ALL food,including milk ...
or do you support regulation but disagree with parts of it?"
we get a lot of folks up on their high horse about a particular regulation they don't like but those same people would never agree to let farmers feed their livestock animal brains or other unsafe practices.
that's the basic problem with the anti-regulation folks.
they focus on something in particular that in and of itself may sound wrong or even egregious but if you step back.....
that 89% includes a lot of folks who do not like a particular reg.
to the people who insist that most americans want strict food regulation- true to a point. most food like substances that come from industrial ag processors need regulation to the hilt. they are in business merely to pay shareholders and CEOs massive profits and they don't care how they achieve their goals.
small family sustainable farmers with whom the consumer has a personal relationship based on trust and transparency are self regulating.
the problem with government regulation is that it doesn't distinguish. the big guys who need regulation can easily slip through the loopholes with their army of attorneys and lobbyists.
the small player who doesn't need regulating will be crushed by them.
to those who said that everyone in prison endures that treatment- SHAME on us as a supposedly civil society for tolerating such a violation of human rights!
for those who asked abut regulating the feeding of animal parts to animals who do not normally eat animals- this method of feeding was actually ENCOURAGED by the USDA- a good cheap way to use up waste and increase profit margins- until it was discovered as the cause of Mad Cow Disease.
no self-respecting farmer would ever feed herbivorous cows animal parts; they do not need regulation. they wouldn't do it because it violates a higher law- nature's.
CAFOs on the other hand will do it even if there are laws against it. they will do it when no one is watching or they will bribe the investigator. when people die of MCD, they will disavow all connection to that particular batch of meat and blame the victim for inadequate cooking skills.
what needs regulating therefore is CAFOs- pile the regulations so high that these places can no longer exist. let farming be farming again, not industry, and all these corporate crimes will go away.
since there's no point i waiting for the government to do it, do it yourself by purchasing real food directly from a real farmer, not from an industrial entity
it's all because there's money in cigarettes, and none in raw milk. End of story.
Larry G
How is secretly feeding livestock animal byproducts and people knowingly buying raw milk the same thing?
I get that you are one of those "the law is the law" types and your threshold against waking to reality is much higher than some of the other people on this string but why should someone be imprisoned and subject to our criminal, justice system for selling people something they knowingly choose to buy? It doesn't matter if that's the law. This particular law is only to favor the big business and drive out the little guys as competition.
Funny how its always the regulated institutions that always get people sick, case in point:
salmonella-tainted peanuts
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/money/peanut-corp-update-recall-salmonella-tainted-peanuts-expanded-pet-foods-article-1.388347
This wasn't a private farmer selling peanut products off his front porch.
or take this example
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-tyson-recalls-possible-tainted-ground-beef-in-illinois-14-other-states-20110928,0,521515.story
Tyson is under the watchful eye of our "regulators" and (with many of them on the payroll as well)
here is another great example contradicting your regulation theory
http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/28/health/cantaloupe-deaths/index.html
these fruit came from a large regulated farm, all those people died from regulated food.
Another example,
tainted spanich
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/17/world/americas/17iht-spinach.2836288.html?_r=1
doesnt look like a single farmer selling produce out of his garden caused this one, yep it's regulated farms and food packing companies again
"raw milk can have pathogens in it that can harm people - depending on the circumstances.
it's one of hundreds/thousands of footstuffs that come from farms that has the potential to harm people."
All food comes from farms by the way and I wasn't able to find a any report of a dairy farmer sickening hundreds or even thousands of people like your "regulated" food distributors have.
Regulation didn't solve or stop any of this, if I buy food straight from the source and its gets me sick I have the option of going to court against them and seeking retribution.
Politicians cant solve problems because they dont understand them in the first place. They do however enrich themselves and their favored benefactors by creating their "regulations" and people like you will NEVER object to them because you think they actually know what they are doing. I Feel sorry for you.
To me it is incredible about what is being governed about in the USA, and in this case California. The land of the free, the land of opportunities, the land of the American Dream. I am from The Netherlands and I consider myself as being an open minded person as to what is going on outside of my country, but this is just plain stupid and belittling.
Up until the industrial revoluton, everybody drank raw milk. What we consider to be biological food nowaday used to be normal, everyday food in our grandparent days.
To regulate drinking raw milk, in my eyes, is waisting peoples taxmoney and not respectfull to the free choice of the public. Please, get busy doing something really important, like being truthfull to the people who have elected you(the government) to represent their voice, the Californians, the Americans, the People, instead of controlling them and filling your bankaccount at the same time. Wake up and lose the perception of trying to control everybody in search of power, money and status. The more you do, the less you get. Get real! Once you are at the end of your live, I hope you look back with the knowledge of making a positive influence on at least one person, without the idea of capital gain or lust for power, but only to help another human being.
To be in control gives one power? Over what? And what's there to gain? Fear? People getting angry? Respect???. A lose/lose situation, I tell you. Live and let live and do whatever you need to do and do it with integrity and resprect to your fellow wo/man. Try it one time. It will make you respect yourself and that is the best feeling ever. And it will keep you out of the shrinks office.
The solution is simple. No food needs to be regulated as long as it carries a label which states that it is unregulated and has the name,address, and phone number of the producer and packager. The public is then free to decide if they would like to take a chance, investigate the supplier, or avoid the product. Just because something is regulated is no guarantee of safety. Food- caused illnesses and deaths happen all the time. It's more about some small guy doing something the big guys can't so the big guys lobby the government to eliminate the competition. Why not shut down the whole processed meat industry because of the prevalence of listeria? Who went to jail and was held on 1 Million bail from Maple Leaf Foods?
@ Larry G.
I see that you demand that people accept either having whatever bs regulations some bureaucrat writes up whether or not said government 'civil servant', and both of those words are used with extreme looseness, knows his butt from a hole in the ground.
Since we have to choose though, I can answer quite adamantly that we not only do not need the USDA or the FDA making up idiotic rules and regulations.
In fact we the people don't need 99% of the government busybodies that sit around dreaming up rules to complicate the lives of hardworking honest citizens who try to make an honest dollar from their labor.
I believe that you, like so many others, are so scared of facing the world without your nanny to protect you from the dangerous old farmer that you insist on having ridiculous rules enforced on others.
Because of your fear, you are bullying people you don't even know and after today I think it might be in your best interests to stay off any raw milk farms or at least use an alias since raw sellers might try to prank a Larry G. should he show up.
To get back to the question regs or no regs...I vote for none over food and to take it even further, I vote for none, period.
The people of this country don't need any regulations, statutes, rules or the bureaucrats that go with them.
Instead, the citizens of America need only 2 LAWS.
1. Do what you say you will do.
2. Do no other person harm without cause.
That's it. Nothing else needed. Those 2 LAWS are all that is needed to have a harmonious life in this country.
Now you run along and think about that if you can without collapsing in terror at the thought of your beloved rules and regulations being gone.
My local farmer can sell me half a pig; however, if she wanted to sell me pork chops, she would have to comply with a series of regulations that cost more than the total value of all of the pigs that she'll sell this year. So most of us buy our meats packaged from a plant that routinely introduces the most dangerous pathogens known to man into the food and wants to use radiation so they can sell us their dirty meat. And I'M too dumb to make up mind my what to eat.
People like Larry G really tick me off. He knows absolutely nothing about the history of raw milk, it's impressive health properties and how it has been demonized by special interest groups. But what really got me was his callous unconcern regarding the jailing and barbaric treatment of a 65 year old organic farmer with no criminal history. As far as he is concerned this kind of treatment is ok and routine and should be applied to all inmates no matter the crime. He described the treatment as comical. It's obvious this shallow minded little twit has never suffered a day in his life and therefore cannot relate to human suffering. Any normal person capable of empathy should be outraged by what happened to this hardworking organic farmer, but not this guy. To him it's comical. The jailers who brutalized this hard working farmer are psychopaths and should be locked up and have the key thrown away. It's easy to see why the country is in the mess it is in because clueless voters like Larry G. elect criminal politicians who sell out the country to the highest bidder. By the way Larry G. there is no regulation whatsoever for the big corporate farms and their toxic products that include genetically altered food crops
thanks to paid off politicians-but lots of draconian regulations for organic farms that produce healthy food and milk that discerning citizens want. But since it is obvious that you don't read anything worthwhile I am sure you are not aware of how big corporations buy off corrupt politicians and use them to shut down producers of wholesome food. Well I can't say you haven't read anything worthwhile because you read this article but it went right over your head because you have no sense of justice and are apparently incapable of making heads or tails out of serious reading material.
Perfect example of why California is going down the crapper and why we need a sea change in this country AWAY from big government and toward freedom and limited government, the kind our forefathers envisioned. Sad and pathetic story.
America is the Fourth Reich.
Are you shitting me? I read this happened in Penn.
Jack
re: " How is secretly feeding livestock animal byproducts and people knowingly buying raw milk the same thing?"
do you see "secret" as non-disclosure?
do you think any/all raw milk is produced the same way?
do you care?
do you care if the facilities are a discarded bath tub and refrigeration is a cooler?
do you, in fact, truly not want ANY regulation at all?
I also know that many farm to consumer operations do already exist including places that slaughter livestock.
but my original question still stands.
are you opposed to ANY regulation of food?
yes or no.
which side of that line are you on?
are you on the slippery slope side or are you opposed to any/all no matter what?
this is a simple question.
Here is the main problem. It is not raw milk, it is about total control. This is exactly what happened in Stalin's Russia and Hitler's Germany. Don't anyone tell me that it can't happen here, it obviously already is happening in California.
Quote from Larry G: "MOST PEOPLE SUPPORT ..."
Such is the depth of your intellect and the acid test for your positions. As long as there is some concocted majority somewhere that apparently supports some position, then it has been proven the right position to you.
Quote from Larry G: "MOST PEOPLE SUPPORT ..."
Such is the depth of your intellect and the acid test for your positions. As long as there is some concocted majority somewhere that apparently supports some position, then it has been proven the right position to you.
Let them declare war on Raw Dairy, they have a right, but Shock, - TORTURE - how we treat inocent persons until they are proven guilty, Guilty human criminals pay by being jailed, hunger/cold is one thing but to actually TORTURE a prisoner in America!! Horrors, Why? This is sick, it could actually happen to them! or any of us.
The extent of 'regulation' on domestically-produced agricultural product should be to require that it be labeled with its source, its ingredients (including whether they are wild-caught or farmed, genetically modified, etc), and any known dangers associated with it. Then, let people decide what to buy, and if they are sickened by something, they know where to go to get redress.
And Larry G., what if most people supported killing everyone named Larry?
....got sick of dealing with the State of California in business 20 years ago, left for Idaho--been a free man ever since--Idaho's like Cali used to be 50 years ago. You are HONORED as an entrepreneur in Idaho. In California, the bureaucracy sees you as a cash cow.
California is OF, BY, and FOR the California State Employees Association.
Oh, by the way---CSEA pensions are unfunded by roughly 50 billion+. Can't wait to see how that works out for 'em.......
larry-
you still duck the basic issue.
who cares what the majority wants?
what does that have to do with me and milk?
if the majority wants vanilla ice cream, what does that have to do with my wanting chocolate?
this all comes down to folks like you looking to wield federal power and impose your will on others.
deep down, you think others are poor benighted fools incapable of making decision in their own self interest and paternalisticly seek to take away their freedom to protect them from bugbears that you find scary.
if the USDA/FDA want to provide voluntary acceredation, great. let them. but it ought to be voluntary.
when they start telling me i cannot consume a product because they say so, that's over the line.
more people are killed by lightning than raw milk. most of the EU can drink it and their food regs vastly exceed ours.
this is a trumped up issue driven by the economic interests of dairy farmers with sunk investment in pasteurization equipment.
why are you so anxious to buy into that and to reduce your and my freedom?
you have not even once made a single argument about why preventing me and a willing farmer from engaging in mutually agreeable commerce is a valid idea.
trying to call it "democracy" is not a valid argument. rights trump democracy, that's why we have them and what staves off tyranny.
we could all vote that you are never allowed to speak about food again. that would be democracy. but it would violate your rights and you would be justifiably unwilling to accept the majority view.
yet you seek to do the same thing to my latte.
that's hypocrisy larry.
goldie-
be a little careful on the torture claims.
i do not know what happened and a suspect neither do you.
such claims are often massively trumped up and overstated in legal complaints, especially those made for a media splash.
if the guy was tied up and beaten with a hose full of batteries, i'm with you. i'll be the first to condemn it.
however, i've seen many examples of "starvation, sleep deprivation, hypothermia, loss of blood circulation to extremities, verbal intimidation, involuntary medical testing and even subjected him to over 30 hours of raw biological sewage filth containing dangerous pathogens.""
meaning there was no meal for 4 hours after he arrived, the neighbors were loud, the bed was hard and made me stiff, i had to pee in a cup for drug testing, and the toilet backed up at one point and a guard told him to shut up.
again, not claiming i know what happened, but be very careful with the way this stuff gets blown up in PR. i suspect the second version of events is closer to the truth than notions that he had to spend weeks in uday husseins's house of prison fun.
larry-
like many statists, you seem to think that a market cannot enforce quality.
who do you trust more for quality assurance, porsche or the US DOT?
do you assume shoes are all the same because of federal regs, or that cavalli might be different from keds?
brands that make crap get labeled as crappy brands. brands exist for consumer protection.
you keep erecting these foolish, illogical straw men and trying to equate not wanting regulation with not caring of your milk was made in a sewer and left in the sun all day.
make what you want. label it as what it is. participate in such voluntary accreditation as you choose. sell to those that wish to buy.
it's really that simple.
if people value the USDA as much as you claim, then they will look for products that bear its seal, just like they look for a CE mark or the good housekeeping seal of approval or the opinion of consumer reports.
you act like reputation did not exist before regulation and that people are idiots who need the government to tell them what to eat.
"but my original question still stands.
are you opposed to ANY regulation of food?
yes or no."
Larry, that question has been answered several times. Are you reading the comments?
morganovich: "deep down, you think others are poor benighted fools incapable of making decision in their own self interest and paternalisticly seek to take away their freedom to protect them from bugbears that you find scary."
I think Larry includes himself in the "can't make decisions in their own self interest" group, and is asking a wise, benevolent nanny to do it for him, and doesn't understand why anyone would feel differently.
here is a post on this post at carpe diem, with more background:
http://tinfoilpalace.eamped.com/2012/03/14/our-country-has-gone-completely-effing-nuts/
there is no record of stewart's arrest...they think you all just got hoaxed.
morganovich, congrats on the front page promotion!
BTW, has anyone seen Ben Jamin?
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I have only drank raw milk for years years. It's a delicious, safe product. I know for a fact that the two farms here in California who produce raw milk (it's hard to find) know about and practice sanitary standards, bacteria-balancing (it's not ALL bad), as well as provide healthy, grassy conditions for their milk cows.
I seriously wish that people would see that this is, yet again, Wal-Mart (Big Agriculture) taking over Mom and Pop (Small raw dairy farms}. My mom fed me raw milk. We had it delivered right to the door in Denver. I'm 60. Still kicking and not even lactose intolerant.
Sounds like a lawsuit to me and there are a lot of folks besides me who would LOVE to be on THAT jury!
Bureaucrats feel extremely challenged when someone bypasses their territory - for fear their job might be found unnecessary. But we should be consistent, right, so should we require that mother's milk also be pasteurized? Cows don't smoke or drink booze, shoot drugs, etc. Cow's raised for raw milk are better cared for than "some" mothers care for themselves - so all mothers should be regulated. It's only fair.
I grew up in Calif. and I miss the raw cow and raw goat milk I used to drink there. Then the dairy industry put massive pressure on the raw dairy product industry. Producers should be allowed to produce unless their product is proven to be harmful, and in this case this man's product was not harming any one.
Regulation of food products and food production came about because of the dishonesty of the food producers, suppliers and distributors. Milk producers were adding in any white powder, most commonly talc, to make the milk go further as well as water.
As seen many times in China, when greedy people are left to their own devices they will do almost anything to up their profits even if it causes death to the buyer. The consumer doesn't have enough information nor is their oversite that would tell the consumer enough information to let the market regulate itself. Dead consumers just isn't the right price to pay nor the right incentive to drive someone out of the market. They might just change names etc. anyway.
I remember back in the '70s my wife got on a natural unpasteurized milk kick and picked up "Listeria". Myself and our children didn't catch it but that was the end of her foray into raw milk for our family. It's not worth dying for to drink that stuff.
I suppose if you want to drink it yourself and not give it to your kids or unsuspecting guests etc. it might be ok.
The bottom line is that milk born illness can be fatal. Citizens have banded together to regulate the producers of milk. It may not be perfect but many many many lives have been saved.
That's what you call government by the people.
"and the vast majority of Americans have demanded that more regulations be put in place"...
Really larry g?
Where does this 'vast majority' live because I've not heard them complaining about the need for more food regulations but the price of gasoline, that's a different story!
BTW why should food regulations be left up to a collection of parasitic bureaucrats who weren't vetted or elected by the people they seek some form of control over?
Why would anyone in their right mind want these food fascists having any input at all with regards to what individuals desire to consume?
"Regulation of food products and food production came about because of the dishonesty of the food producers, suppliers and distributors"...
I beg to disagree guamjeff...
Food regulations came about because some saps were to lazy to take care of themselves and wanted to foist off that responsibility onto someone else...
Let's get real here. The big producers of beef and dairy products have been killing people for years. And what happens to them - they get find 10-20,000$ by the FDA. Luckily we can still file civil suits against them, but fighting a billion dollar industry is hard when you are a working class individual. Also watch out, the FDA is creating laws that will make it impossible to file civil suits againt large food producers.
Our government is out of control. The only purpose it servers any longer is for big business to buy laws in their favor.
We need a ballot option that says "I don't vote for anybody, and throw the son of a bitch who is in there now, OUT THE DOOR."
Let's get real here. The big producers of beef and dairy products have been killing people for years. And what happens to them - they get find 10-20,000$ by the FDA. Luckily we can still file civil suits against them, but fighting a billion dollar industry is hard when you are a working class individual. Also watch out, the FDA is creating laws that will make it impossible to file civil suits againt large food producers.
Our government is out of control. The only purpose it servers any longer is for big business to buy laws in their favor.
We need a ballot option that says "I don't vote for anybody, and throw the son of a bitch who is in there now, OUT THE DOOR."
Quoting Larry G
"GEEZE! If you start out asking if there should be no regulations at all on food produced on farms - most folks would not agree that there should be no regulations at all. So most people support some level of regulation for safe food practices."
It looks to me like you are the only one making this assertion concerning no regulations. Clever because you make it seem like this was the thrust of the article which it clearly was not. At no point prior to your post do I see anyone else suggest this.
So what you did was attempt to take control of the reactions by steering people away from the points at hand into another frankly unrelated area. Nice.
You go on to describe the one week detention of an older person whose past record in the community deserves some respect as
"the jail story was comical. anyone who goes to jail, regardless of reason, could be said to have to suffer such indignities."
This demonstrates to me a complete lack of compassion or any sense of fair play or justice.
Your observation that:
"They might as well report the entire us jail system to Amnesty International!"
Is however a good one as clearly something is seriously wrong with it, one week because of selling raw milk to people who want it? You see that as OK?
I sincerely trust that you are in the minority.
Your parting quip attempts to link whats happened here with the Mad Cow disease scare of previous years, you are aware of course that it was corporate greed under government regulation (UK) which created that in the first place when it was thought a great idea to feed animal offal back to the animals via their feed? No doubt the US corporates saw the profit motive and jumped right in.
I bet you think fluoride is good for you to.
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Gee, when all is said and done here, one can ponder why any life forms at all still exist on this planet. Perhaps there is a mis-translation of the Bible and there was actually 8 days of creation....And on the 8th day, God said, "Let there be no natural foods consumed by My creatures, Let There be The UDSA and Its Regulations; Only this Way can any survive". I'd love to hear the roars of laughter if this story was translated and spoken before the campfires of any one of the myriad of peoples today that pretty much live off the land, their daily markets, herds of goats, sheep cattle, backyard gardens. Maybe aliens are keeping them alive...or it IS that 8th Day thing...!
Have any of the proponents of unregulated food sales read "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair? Profit motive is a terrible way to ensure publich health and safety. Unless consumers start breaking out microscopes to examine the pathogen content of their food before eating it, I have to think that having a regulatory body with the resources to enforce hygiene among food producers is a good thing. I don;t think we should be throwing milk men in jail, but there needs to be a system which gives some peace of mind to people that can't afford to investigate the food that they eat. Maybe we could start rating food providers like we do with restaurants? Farms that don't conform to accepted hygiene practices would be labeled as such.
I grew up on a family farm and we all drank fresh raw milk everyday. My whole family is still alive except my grandparents who died in their late 90s.
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