Friday, August 13, 2010

Perfect Proportional Representation: Nobody Can Demonstrate It, And Yet It's Taken As a Norm

"Anyone who has watched football over the years has probably seen at least a hundred black players score touchdowns-- and not one black player kick the extra point. Is this because of some twisted racist who doesn't mind black players scoring touchdowns but hates to see them kicking the extra points?

At our leading engineering schools-- M.I.T., CalTech, etc.-- whites are under-represented and Asians over-represented. Is this anti-white racism or pro-Asian racism? Or are different groups just different? 

As for baseball, I have long noticed that there are more blacks playing centerfield than third-base. Since the same people hire centerfielders and third-basemen, it is hard to argue that racism explains the difference.

No one says it is racism that explains why blacks are over-represented and whites under-represented in basketball. Bean-counters only make a fuss when there is a disparity that fits their vision or their agenda.

Ask the bean-counters where in this wide world have different groups been proportionally represented. They can't tell you. In other words, something that nobody can demonstrate is taken as a norm, and any deviation from that norm is somebody's fault!"


29 Comments:

At 8/13/2010 11:22 AM, Blogger bob wright said...

Benjamin - you can't be serious.

 
At 8/13/2010 12:43 PM, Blogger Ron H. said...

bob wright said...

"Benjamin - you can't be serious."

Did you mean to say: -

"Benjamin - you can't be taken seriously."

Benji almost always provides us with comic relief, and we appreciate it, but I don't see a comment from him. Did you comment on the wrong thread?

 
At 8/13/2010 12:48 PM, Blogger bob wright said...

Ron H.,

There was a comment from Benjamin here earlier. I don't know what happened to it.

 
At 8/13/2010 12:51 PM, Blogger Mark J. Perry said...

Bob and Ron: The editorial board of Carpe Diem removed Benjamin's comment for not meeting the minimal standards.

 
At 8/13/2010 1:00 PM, Blogger Junkyard_hawg1985 said...

As a Clemson alumnist, I'm offended that Donald Igwebuike was not considered. He was a black field goal kicker for Tampa Bay (4th all time leading scorer). Clearly the editorial board at Carpe Diem lacks appropiate diversity and needs a Clemson alumnist on the board.

 
At 8/13/2010 1:02 PM, Blogger juandos said...

Dr. Sowell says: 'But it is part of a more general bean-counting mentality that turns statistical differences into grievances. The time is long overdue to throw this race card out of the deck and start seeing it for the gross fallacy that it is'...

Hmmm, that would throw a lot of federal, state, and local employees out of work, wouldn't it?

 
At 8/13/2010 2:20 PM, Blogger sethstorm said...


At our leading engineering schools-- M.I.T., CalTech, etc.-- whites are under-represented and Asians over-represented. Is this anti-white racism or pro-Asian racism?


How about all of the above?

The sports examples just don't hold water. The comparison that is made between education and sports is an apples-oranges comparison.

 
At 8/13/2010 3:25 PM, Blogger Ron H. said...

"Clearly the editorial board at Carpe Diem lacks appropiate diversity and needs a Clemson alumnist on the board."

The editorial board is probably as diverse as is possible considering the number of members.

 
At 8/13/2010 3:36 PM, Blogger Ron H. said...

"At our leading engineering schools-- M.I.T., CalTech, etc.-- whites are under-represented and Asians over-represented. Is this anti-white racism or pro-Asian racism?"

Under/over representation will cease to be a problem when schools quit asking applicants questions about their race, ethnicity, or gender, and concern themselves only with academic qualifications.

 
At 8/13/2010 3:37 PM, Blogger juandos said...

"The comparison that is made between education and sports is an apples-oranges comparison"...

Hmmm, so now we can add your inability to understand both education and sports to your inability to understand simple economic, eh sethstorm?

 
At 8/13/2010 3:45 PM, Blogger Ron H. said...

juandos said...

"Hmmm, that would throw a lot of federal, state, and local employees out of work, wouldn't it?"

Wouldn't that be nice?

Sowell is great, ain't he? He cuts right through the BS every time.

 
At 8/13/2010 3:49 PM, Blogger Ron H. said...

""The comparison that is made between education and sports is an apples-oranges comparison"

Once again sethstorm appears to have read an entirely different post than the one being discussed on this thread.

 
At 8/13/2010 3:52 PM, Blogger juandos said...

Hey Ron H, did you catch the following on CNBC by chance?

sethstorm's people whining on Wall street

 
At 8/13/2010 4:10 PM, Blogger sethstorm said...


Sowell is great, ain't he? He cuts right through the BS every time.

Except when he introduces his own BS, which is the case here. Take his name out of it, and the argument collapses.

Juandos, the connection between education and sports is a stretch - at best. Different goals, different scales, different uses of a team, different outcomes, different purposes. Explain it with your lack of understanding.


Ron, I read the right thread. No, those are not my people despite your attempt at trying to apply that (incorrect) label. They might be someone else's people, but not mine.

--

How about allowing proportional representation work independent of race?

 
At 8/13/2010 4:14 PM, Blogger sethstorm said...


How about allowing proportional representation work independent of race?

To clarify, it would work such that there is no race that gets specific treatment, but that the proportionality works towards all races. If that means you have to allow for more whites, so be it.

Merit already gets thrown out of the window when you have legacy admits.

 
At 8/13/2010 4:15 PM, Blogger Ron H. said...

"Hey Ron H, did you catch the following on CNBC by chance?

sethstorm's people whining on Wall street.
"

Yes, and as usual, they are misguided. It's politicians in DC that throw money to whiney crowds like this, not Wall Street brokers. They are wasting their time there.

 
At 8/13/2010 4:44 PM, Blogger juandos said...

"Except when he introduces his own BS, which is the case here. Take his name out of it, and the argument collapses"...

It does?!?!

How so?

"Juandos, the connection between education and sports is a stretch - at best. Different goals, different scales, different uses of a team, different outcomes, different purposes"...

Well sethstorm I see you're trying to 'over think' a simple situation again...

The painfully obvious commonality between what sports teams want and what schools are handing out academic scholarships for is that they both want the best regardless of the race of the individual...

"No, those are not my people despite your attempt at trying to apply that (incorrect) label"...

Well sethstorm like you they think they can spend somebody else's money better than the owner of said money...

I'm guessing this opinion piece in the WSJ still isn't making an impression you, right?

Why I'm Not Hiring

Professor Mark posted it before but I just wanted to remind you sethstorm of the many vagaries but on business by government when it comes to hiring people...

If there's anyone to blame for sethstorm not getting a job (besides sethstorm) then maybe sethstorm should consider looking at government first and foremost...

 
At 8/13/2010 5:02 PM, Blogger sethstorm said...


Well sethstorm I see you're trying to 'over think' a simple situation again...

Except that I provided a simple list of differences. You're just trying to overthink of a defense.




Professor Mark posted it before but I just wanted to remind you sethstorm of the many vagaries but on business by government when it comes to hiring people...

The more reason to force them to hire. Any way possible, and in a manner that prevents sabotage.

 
At 8/13/2010 5:14 PM, Blogger Ron H. said...

Gee, Seth, what didn't you like about Sowell's column? As I read it, he's recommending throwing away the race card, and not trying to find discrimination in every statistic. What could you possibly find wrong with that?

What did you think was BS if Sowells name wasn't attached?

"How about allowing proportional representation work independent of race?"

Wait! Don't start that stuff again. Don't respond to your own comments. Wait for someone else to do it. If you don't get a response, it's probably because you haven't said anything worth responding to.

What if employers just considered qualifications without considering race or gender and irregardless of proportion?

The most qualified get the jobs. Would that work for you?

 
At 8/13/2010 5:15 PM, Blogger sethstorm said...


then maybe sethstorm should consider looking at government first and foremost...

I do, just not as a hindrance to business. If business is willing to sabotage industry for political ends, government has every right to block it.

When business doesn't like what politicians are in, they'll drag their feet until they get one they can buy. For extended engagements, they're willing to starve people and remove jobs until they get what they want.

 
At 8/13/2010 7:08 PM, Blogger Benjamin said...

Oh, I am sorry. Sowell did write a book in 2005, in which he made these declarations (according to Wikipedia).

According to Sowell, in his 2005 Black Rednecks and White Liberals, what many see as pathologies of contemporary black culture actually derive from a dysfunctional historical white-southern “cracker” culture.
"What the [white] rednecks or crackers brought with them across the ocean was a whole constellation of attitudes, values, and behavior patterns that might have made sense in the world in which they had lived for centuries, but which would prove to be counterproductive in the world to which they were going — and counterproductive to the blacks who would live in their midst for centuries before emerging into freedom and migrating to the great urban centers of the United States, taking with them similar values.
The cultural values and social patterns prevalent among Southern whites included an aversion to work, proneness to violence, neglect of education, sexual promiscuity, improvidence, drunkenness, lack of entrepreneurship, reckless searches for excitement, a lively music and dance, and a style of religious oratory marked by strident rhetoric, unbridled emotions, and flamboyant imagery. This oratorical style carried over into the political oratory of the region in both the Jim Crow era and the civil rights era, and has continued on into our own times among black politicians, preachers, and activists. Touchy pride, vanity, and boastful self-dramatization were also part of this redneck culture among people from regions of Britain where the civilization was the least developed.[25]"

I see, "southern whites" have an aversion to work--and blacks picked up on it.

Oh boy. And my comments get deleted? Can we delete Sowell?

 
At 8/13/2010 7:40 PM, Blogger juandos said...

"Sowell is great, ain't he? He cuts right through the BS every time"...

You know Ron H Thomas Sowell along with Walter Williams are my heros...

They both made it on their own in spite of the '64 Civil Rights Act...

Back to the sethstorm...

"Except that I provided a simple list of differences"...

Well sethstorm as usual your alledged list had little if anything to do with reality...

Then there's more of sethstorm's Marxist blather: "The more reason to force them to hire. Any way possible, and in a manner that prevents sabotage"...

Oh really! Would that include confiscation of the business person's business and personal wealth, in otherwords you want the government to steal for you, right?

Sounds a bit like Obamanomics to me...

Speaking of which there is the following from the Washington Examiner: Time to admit Obamanomics has failed

 
At 8/14/2010 10:32 AM, Blogger Free2Choose said...

"The more reason to force them to hire. Any way possible, and in a manner that prevents sabotage."

Really? That's the answer, Seth? What if the government decided instead to force you to accept a job that you were not qualified for, did not want, and at a pay scale that you did not agree with? Would you still feel the same way about forced employment?

 
At 8/14/2010 10:37 AM, Blogger sethstorm said...


Oh really! Would that include confiscation of the business person's business and personal wealth, in other words you want the government to steal for you, right?


Their actions in the name of "regime uncertainty" are just as bad. Second, no money does not go to the government that would not already be destined there. Thirdly, the prevention of sabotage and prevention of bad-faith "compliance" is not anything you're implying. People get hired en masse, the economy recovers, and a few people's failed business models fail.

The idea is to break the purposeful strike of capital, even at a politically inconvenient time. Then a recovery can begin despite unfavorable politics.

There went your narrative, in a ball of flames.

 
At 8/14/2010 11:24 AM, Blogger sethstorm said...


Free2Choose said...

Except that the person looking for work no longer contends with employers that want to sabotage the economy. They get to find work.

 
At 8/14/2010 4:22 PM, Blogger ALima said...

This could be a consequence of a person willing to risk more to get something. Education brings many advantages to you in an asian family, not so much in others. Same with athletics.

 
At 8/14/2010 6:16 PM, Blogger Ron H. said...

sethstorm said...

"They get to find work."

Help me, Seth, I may be misunderstanding this. Did you just say you would be OK with being forced to take a job you weren't qualified for, didn't want, and which didn't pay what your importantness expects to be paid?

 
At 8/14/2010 7:07 PM, Blogger juandos said...

"Except that the person looking for work no longer contends with employers that want to sabotage the economy"...

ROFLMAO!

Here you go sethstorm, you're hero is already doing a good bit of sabotage with his silly, socialist agenda...

Washington Examiner opinion piece:
Time to admit Obamanomics has failed

 
At 8/16/2010 1:30 PM, Blogger Mark Michael Lewis said...

Black Rednecks, White Liberals - great book!

The Wikipedia quote presents a summary of an argument Sowell spent 100+ pages documenting proof for. Yes, it is a bold and controversial statement. And, he backed it up with meticulous research.

It does not "fly" to ridicule a conclusion without examining the facts, premises, and logic.

Again, great read - it's real Sowell Food.

 

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