"The reason economists have trouble with the idea of rampant [gender] pay
discrimination is that it defies common sense. Let's say I own a company
and I am employing only men. Is it really true that I could fire all
the men, replace them with women and lower my cost of labor by 23%? If I
could do that why wouldn't I? If I were stupid enough not to do it,
wouldn't a competitor of mine do it and drive me out of business?"
"In other words, if workers received substantially different pay for
doing the same job, an employer would have to be leaving a lot of money
on the table by not hiring the lower-paid employees. (Remember, most
people who believe in pay discrimination also believe most CEOs are
selfish, money-grubbing sorts as well.) And it can't just be one
employer. In order for pay differentials to persist in entire
industries, every employer in the market must be willing to discriminate
— including the firms run by women!"
~John Goodman
John Goodman: In order for pay differentials to persist in entire industries, every employer in the market must be willing to discriminate"
ReplyDeleteWhich is why discrimination has never existed!
Some of these people are so deranged that they honestly believe men hate women so much that they are willing to forgo profit to keep them down or to at least avoid working with them. But, the KMG's of the world are extreme outliers.
ReplyDeleteDon Culo: There is NO pay discrimation, sexual harrasment, racism or any other thing people whine about.
ReplyDeleteNever has been. It defies common sense.
There is pay discrimination. If you're going to take three months off to have a baby and if you need a lot of time off to tend to your children, then you're a less valuable employee to me and I will pay you less. Actually, if your productivity is hampered for ANY reason, I will pay you less.
ReplyDeleteThere is a place that does have this sort of gender discrimination, in a fairly massive way. Japan.
ReplyDeleteAnd there are (mostly foreign) firms that take advantage of this to hire (excellent) female employees.
Systems tend to be stable when they are consistent with cultural beliefs, even if they do ot maximize things we view as important, e.g., profit.
Consider European paid vacation times.
"There is NO pay discrimation, sexual harrasment, racism or any other thing people whine about"...
ReplyDeleteUnless you're a self loathing and thoroughly confused leftist where you'll see descrimination, sexual harrasment, and racism around every corner, behind every door, and stalking the 'poor victim' down every street and alley way...
I did a study back in college. In Massachusetts (where I did my studies), if you look at total wage (that is, paycheck plus the value of all non-monetary forms of compensation such as sick time, vacation time, maternity leave, health insurance, etc), I found that woman make more than men for the same work. Now, I do not know what that looks like at the national level, but just thought I'd share an anecdote.
ReplyDeleteIs There Really A Glass Ceiling For Women?
ReplyDelete11/14/2011
Examples of obstacles (women find) include:
•Prejudice: Men are promoted more quickly than women with equivalent qualifications, even in traditionally female settings such as nursing and education.
•Resistance to women’s leadership: People view successful female managers as more deceitful, pushy, selfish, and abrasive than successful male managers.
•Leadership style issues: Many female leaders struggle to reconcile qualities people prefer in women (compassion for others) with qualities people think leaders need to succeed (assertion and control).
•Family demands: Women are still the ones who interrupt their careers to handle work/family trade-offs. Overloaded, they lack time to engage in the social networking essential to advancement.
Methinks squawked :
ReplyDeleteBut, the KMG's of the world are extreme outliers.
Actually, I am normal. This poll proves it.
89% say misandry is excessive. And the website is not even a gender-issue website.
For someone who calls herself 'methinks', you aren't really a logical thinker.
You are just a feminist who selectively chooses to reject 1 or 2 feminist talking points, while imbibing the other 98% of them.
In the poll linked above, 89% say that misandry is excessive, while only 8% say that women still have it worse than men (or ever did).
ReplyDeleteAnd that is not even a gender-issues website. Most of the people voting there probably have the same views as Prof. Mark Perry.
I am soooo glad that awareness of pervasive misandry is growing.
Beware of extreme feminists in moderate clothing (such as 'Methinks'). They perform the same role that 'moderate Muslims' perform for Al-Qaeda. Pretend to be against perhaps 2% of the extremist wings issues, while tacitly approving the other 98%.
" (Remember, most people who believe in pay discrimination also believe most CEOs are selfish, money-grubbing sorts as well.) And it can't just be one employer. In order for pay differentials to persist in entire industries, every employer in the market must be willing to discriminate — including the firms run by women!"
ReplyDeletereally?
did we NEVER have this problem? Do other countries - like Middle East countries or Asian countries not have this problem right now?
is this a non-problem for the entire period of women in the workforce?
or is this just another rant with a "CEOs are pigs" thrown in for good measure?
Discrimination is undeniable and real - in history and in other parts of the world right now.
we've made significant progress in this country but there was a time when women simply where not allowed to even compete for some kinds of work and in other jobs where they could, - clearly paid less.
and in other parts of the world, gender discrimination is a fact - and it looks similar to the kinds of discrimination we had in this country - not that long ago.
If it were not for WWII - this country may well have continued work discrimination of women.
why do we argue as if it never happened?
why do we argue as if it never happened?
ReplyDeleteBecause the most dangerous and dirty jobs, were, and still are, done by men. No discussion of this subject is possible without this point being central to the debate.
93% of workplace deaths are men. When women whine about the fact that 50% of CEOs are not women, while ignoring the fact that the 'glass floor' that protects women also exists, their outright dishonesty becomes widely visible.
True equality is when 50% of ALL jobs, good and bad, are done by women.
I am willing to pass laws to ensure 50% of CEOs and Corporate Directors are women, if we also pass laws to ensure 50% of the most dangerous and dirty jobs are also done by women (which are a much greater number of jobs).
Any takers? I didn't think so.
It is absurd that people claim that the gender that comprises 93% of workplace deaths somehow has it better (or ever did).
"Do other countries - like Middle East countries or Asian countries not have this problem right now?"
ReplyDeleteNo, Larry they don't have this "problem". It is a problem for you who don't share their cultural values.
re: dirty/dangerous jobs and discrimination even for jobs that are not dirty/dangerous.
ReplyDeletenot as much as a problem as it used to be but it was not a non-existent problem in the past in the US and it is still a problem in the world in other countries.
even Methinks has related an example of it recently.
"moderate" feminist methinks is building a dirty bomb to nuke all kmgs of the world. Mwahahahaha!
ReplyDeletelet's see how many increasingly deranged comments that'll inspire from kmg.
Peak, what's your point?
ReplyDeleteMen are willing to work longer hours. Women are still the ones with the uteruses. Nobody forces women to have children. I work in the most aggressive, testosterone soaked part of my male-dominated industry and I've never had a problem with my subordinates. You can be both compassionate and assertive. Not only are the two not mutually exclusive but the best bosses of both genders are - being supportive of your valuable employees when unpleasant events occur in their lives instills in them a desire to work harder when the crisis has passed. Finally, nobody forces women to slow their roll when they have kids or to have them at all. We all have challenges. C'est la vie.
The most interesting comment so far on this is the comment regarding the culture in Japan. Not being pro or con but most of this pay discrimination, wealth redistribution issues are new, historically to the US. What we are seeing is a change in the basic culture,trying to find some balance in our crazy world. We seem to be obsessed with anything unequal and find some sloppy statistic to prove that something is unequal which is suppose to mean bad. It wasn't that many generations ago that these arguments wouldn't have even been considered. Maybe it is a good sign that this is only problem yet to 'solve' but .......
ReplyDeleteThe most interesting comment so far on this is the comment regarding the culture in Japan. Not being pro or con but most of this pay discrimination, wealth redistribution issues are new, historically to the US. What we are seeing is a change in the basic culture,trying to find some balance in our crazy world. We seem to be obsessed with anything unequal and find some sloppy statistic to prove that something is unequal which is suppose to mean bad. It wasn't that many generations ago that these arguments wouldn't have even been considered. Maybe it is a good sign that this is only problem yet to 'solve' but .......
ReplyDeletere: obsessed with "unequal"
ReplyDeletegood point.
if you are in line at a fast food place or DMV or wherever and someone breaks he line - what are your feelings?
if you are a women working somewhere and multiples times it feels like others break the line, how do you feel?
Larry G: did we NEVER have this problem? Do other countries - like Middle East countries or Asian countries not have this problem right now?
ReplyDeleteCan't happen. Don't you read?
John Goodman: In order for pay differentials to persist in entire industries, every employer in the market must be willing to discriminate"
Which is why discrimination has never existed!
Larry G regarding e: obsessed with "unequal"
ReplyDeleteI don't think you will ever understand - generations ago it would have been rare for someone to cut in line and if they did the community or the guy that he cut off probably would kick his sorry rear end. Likewise women weren't obsessed with the glass ceiling - it was the culture, folks found other ways to expand or reach their goals. This obsession is tied to the me, me, me culture of today.
Do you really believe that if you could solve this 'problem' that there wouldn't be a similar statistic that shows left handed folks get paid less than right handed folks so that there is another 'problem' to solve.
re: "solving the problem"
ReplyDeletenope. but it still don't feel good to the folks disadvantaged by seemingly unfair things.
I'm just saying that when a particular group of people all feel they are being treated differently, that they start to compare notes and get vocal about.
and probably should.
if you are a women working somewhere and multiples times it feels like others break the line, how do you feel?
ReplyDeleteExcept that this happens to men far more than women, and it is women who are breaking the line.
The problem is that biologically, the same number of babies can be born even if most of the men die. This is why just about every human society sent men to die in wars, and most men would already be dead even before any woman faced harm.
The US had 300,000 casualties in WW2. About 99% of them were men.
Now that wars have become less (and partly because civilians are at risk due to the 20th century emergence of the airplane), the natural tendency to make men expendable translates into modern-day slavery, debtors prison, etc. which do exist in modern day America as long as the recipient is a male who failed to appease a female sufficiently.
Methinks whined,
ReplyDelete"moderate" feminist methinks is building a dirty bomb to nuke all kmgs of the world. Mwahahahaha!
Yawn.... you are just indignant that you have been intellectually outclassed, with just my first comment.
Heh heh
At any rate, this poll shows that 89% of respondents have my view, and only an 8% fringe have the absurd view that women are 'oppressed'.
Methinks represents this radical fringe.
And before you claim that poll is not representative, remember that site is not even a gender-issues site.
The same poll placed on Carpe Diem would have similar results.