Ten Things Our Kids Will Never Worry About
CARPE DIEM
Professor Mark J. Perry's Blog for Economics and Finance
Thursday, December 29, 2011
About Me
- Name: Mark J. Perry
- Location: Washington, D.C., United States
Dr. Mark J. Perry is a professor of economics and finance in the School of Management at the Flint campus of the University of Michigan. Perry holds two graduate degrees in economics (M.A. and Ph.D.) from George Mason University near Washington, D.C. In addition, he holds an MBA degree in finance from the Curtis L. Carlson School of Management at the University of Minnesota. In addition to a faculty appointment at the University of Michigan-Flint, Perry is also a visiting scholar at The American Enterprise Institute in Washington, D.C.
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49 Comments:
RE: #10 'Being without the Internet & instant, ubiquitous connectivity'...
Hmmm, can you say SOPA?
to change the channel, you now have to find the remote...it aint never anywhere near the TV...
and the ATT rotary phone i had lasted more than 30 years; find me one that lasts 10 today...
and i still dont know how to type..
This comment has been removed by the author.
The author was not very bold in his predictions. #11. I think the biggest will be not needing to learn a foreign language. The IPhone can already convert a written Spanish phrase to English. It is only a matter of time before spoken English can be converted to spoken Spanish on a cell phone. This will also apply to any other major language. That's my prediction!
re: typing
okay I'm sitting here with my hands on a querty keyboard... touch typing... without looking at the keyboard.. and that includes backspacing to correct my errors.
( I agree with the rest of the things we don't have to do by the way but this one is sketchy).
I took a class many years ago but I still am not good at finding the special characters.
Kids in elementary school have to be taught how to use a keyboard but many, many young people don't use keyboards on their cell phones..they "thumb" and this is how we got to "tweets".. get it done in 140 characters and DO mangle the english language to make the message as short as possible...
We were showing a parent how to use an IPAD... and he wanted to search GOOGLE and so we had him finger the search button and it brings up the virtual keyboard.
there is no tactil feel to that keyboard.
for instance, the right finger on my left hand can "feel" the "F" because it has a little tit on it.
so long story short.. Dad was not a typist...did not know how to "thumb" and pretty much had a not so wonderful experience trying to key in a search term.
so my question here is - do kids learn on their own to touch type so when they type in search terms..they just rattle them off in the search window or do they "thumb" or do they "hunt and peck"?
If you had to write a 1000 word tome.. could you do it by "thumbing" or "hunting and pecking"?
so how do YOU use a keyboard and do you use a physical keyboard different than a virtual keyboard or a cell phone "keyboard"?
Larry, if you used the most recent smartphones, you'd know that the future is voice recognition, not typing. I was talking to a friend about his iPhone 4S recently and he was raving about how useful the built-in Siri voice recognition was for him. Android has had speech recognition built in for some time and Apple is now finally catching up. The notion of typing at all will go the way of the dodo bird within the next decade or so. This Forbes guy either doesn't track the latest developments much or doesn't want to speculate at all, so he merely states the obvious of what has already happened rather than look around the bend at what's coming.
that's interesting...and I realized that voice-to-text was getting to be common-place but I have to tell you that most folks I know with smartphones still stare into them and feverishly thumb their messages.
I had assumes that sooner or later we'd go this way but what's interesting is how K-6 will teach reading, writing, communication skills... interfacing with computers, phones, etc.
right now.. they learn keyboarding and are in the process of learning how to use tablets but not speech to text... as far as I know.
The #1 things our kids will never worry about? Manners.
#1 thing we didn't worried about and our kids will : debt.
Marking typing class as "has been" is plain stupid. Most of the serious jobs now requires a computer (eg with A KEYBOARD), not some iTouch thing. And to be productive with a computer you definitely need a good typing.
I was asking someone I know who is an elementary school teacher about this and how or what you'd teach a kid in 1, 2, 3...grades.. i.e. K-6 and how that fits in with things like "thumbing texts" and using IPADs with virtual keyboards and the bottom line is that you still need to know how to type for things like terms papers, resumes, etc.
It's one thing to dictate words to a speech to text software.. but it's a whole different critter to go back and edit it...
people will still need to know how to read and write and articulate concepts...
so the demise of the keyboard is probably a bit ambitious....
virtual keyboard suck because as any touch typist will tell you the F and J keys usually have a tit on them and that's how you keep your fingers aligned on the keyboard and without those tits you have no idea where your fingers are until you hit a key.
Larry, as I've said many times, there will be no K-6 soon enough so what they think is irrelevant. :) If I were them, I'd still stick to teaching typing for now, as teachers are not in the business of forecasting upcoming tech trends, just pointing out that typing is about to be obsoleted. Also, not sure why you think you still need a keyboard for "editing," as it is easy enough to have a first pass where you lay down your words, then a second editing pass with special spoken editing commands, ie all speech recognition, no keyboard needed. Of course, people will still "read" to some extent, though text-to-voice is taking away even that constraint, though not "write," more like compose sentences, and articulating concepts has never been taught well in school anyway. Not sure why you think any of those will stop the demise of the keyboard, that's like saying you'll still need a pencil to read and write, when I haven't used pen/pencil and paper in many years now. Virtual keyboards are a non sequitur.
Simon, since speech recognition is about to take over, typing classes are "has beens," you just don't realize it yet. :) Anything done on an iOS device is also available on any other computer, as Apple's Siri speech recognition is powered by Nuance, the same company that has been putting out the Dragon speech recognition products for all computers for many years now, and Siri simply records your voice and sends the file back to massive servers to translate, which is the way Google's speech recognition in Android has worked for years, so these voice recognition services can be used on any computer someday, handheld or not. The point is that many people are highly productive with speech recognition already and it is on the verge of becoming the default interface to your computer. :)
Whoops, pasted the same link twice, the second link should be this one, where some techies reverse-engineered Siri on the iPhone and determined that it is sending voice recordings back to the mother ship, just like Android has been doing for years.
actually I'm totally on board with speech to text but a skeptic that it is a final step...
and I still think people need to be able to articulate thoughts and concepts no matter the medium for expressing them.
kids need to learn to read and write no matter how they eventually get it into the "cloud".
I've seen some really awful resumes from college graduates.. shocking... actually... so I hope we don't forget that it's what you have in your own memory banks and how you get it in there and out of there ... that is important.
but methinks you are overly ambitious on this anyhow..
the folks I have seen with smartphones.. most of them are not "recording" their speech.... yet...
and I can just imagine teaching a 6 year old to record his/her thoughts... rather than express them in writing....
but maybe I'm an old fogey, eh?
do you know of any schools that teach speech to text - at any grade level.. K-12 or higher Ed?
"Apple's Siri speech recognition is powered by Nuance"...
You mean this SIRI?
Larry, who said voice recognition is the "final step?" That's this. ;) Who needs to "articulate thoughts and concepts" when we're all living in a Wall-E style spaceship where everything is handled for you? :D Reading and writing are merely one form of communication, which could soon be obsoleted. Most might simply listen to automatically generated voice recordings generated from old texts, similar to how audiobooks are an explosive market segment now, with a lot of people who don't read using audio to still get the same information. For example, someone might never be able to sit down and read Freakonomics, but they'd gladly listen to a voice recording of it: there are many people like this.
And many already "write" by punching in all kinds of idiosyncratic "words" and "punctuation" into their smartphones, soon they'll just dash off a spoken message and the software will simply deliver the spoken recording, perhaps along with a text version generated by speech recognition for the few holdovers who still "read." ;) The notion of a resume as a signifier of what you have in your "memory banks" is silly and easily obsoleted. Anyone with a smartphone who is using the built-in Android or Siri speech recognition is already technically recording their speech, as that's how those services work. They record what you say, send it over the internet to massive computer servers owned by Google and Apple, and send back the automatically translated text, so fast that you may not even realize that your voice recording ever left your phone.
Any 6-year old could have recorded their thoughts with a tape recorder for decades, the problem was that it was too cumbersome to search through the tapes for those thoughts later, though written notes are only marginally better as they're easier to scan. With computers and speech recognition, that isn't the case anymore: I can simply voice all my thoughts to my computer, which will record and index all the speech-recognized text, and all of my spoken thoughts will be instantaneously available to me at any time by simply "searching" through it by voicing some keywords.
You're not necessarily an "old fogey," things are just moving fast in the information age. :) As I keep repeating to you, what schools "teach" is irrelevant, they are about to be obsoleted altogether by online learning. And your question is somewhat nonsensical, the whole point of speech recognition is that it is more natural and there is nothing to "teach," unlike the unnatural process of augmenting your spoken vocabulary with a written one, unless you mean how to program your own speech recognition software, in which case there are many universities that have classes in the subject, though they are probably woefully behind the state-of-the-art at these giant tech companies that are actually deploying it.
"Apple's Siri speech recognition is powered by Nuance"...
You mean this SIRI?
re: kids don't need to be taught
K-6.. they need to be taught..
take my word for it...
K-6 kids don't need to be taught anything either, as most of what is taught is utterly useless. It's just a "jobs" program for the K-6 teachers. If you think otherwise, please list the useful parts. This will be funny. :)
Sprewell..my man.... how about showing me a country where they don't educate their kids.. that you admire.
Larry, easy, the US. :) By all accounts, the education system is horrible here, as all standardized tests show that US students learn the least when compared to other developed countries, yet somehow these US kids grow up to become the richest people in the world. That's because what's taught is useless and because the US has freer markets than the places that ram more useless subjects into their kids' heads. Now imagine how much richer we could be if we got rid of our worthless schools altogether, :) that's what's going to happen in the coming years. Just as email and Fedex are destroying the US postal service, online learning will destroy the schools and universities.
what about all those European and Asian countries that educate their kids?
is that a failed education system also?
You should be able to answer this one yourself, Larry, why do you need me to spell it out for you? Do those "European and Asian countries" get higher test scores? Then according to you they've succeeded, but according to me they've failed, because most of what is taught most everywhere is useless. This is borne out by the fact that all those countries that you consider "more educated" are also much poorer than the US, but as I pointed out earlier that's also because markets are generally freer in the US, though not as free here as they could be either. So we know what works, less of the hopelessly obsolete education curriculum pushed in most schools and freer markets, and yet we have many people like you ignorantly arguing for exactly the opposite.
Well, you're not going to have a choice, because as online learning proves its worth and students start dropping out of existing schools and universities en masse, there is nothing you will be able to do to cobble the antiquated system of schools and universities back together again. Millions of teachers will be thrown out on the streets and good riddance, as they have been a cancer on the rest of the populace with their leftie unions and ridiculous demands for many decades now.
so name the top countries in the world who do not educate their kids.
show me that education is not needed by giving some good examples.
I just gave you no. 1, Larry, but of course you ignore the fact that US kids do the worst on standardized tests yet turn out the richest, just like you run away from my question of what you find essential in a K-6 education. I'm not going to sit here and write a thesis for you filled with many examples, try doing some research on your own for once, along with perhaps actually reading my previous posts where I pointed out that even the Nordic socialists have switched to voucher systems. What we have in the US today is not an education system: it's a make-work "jobs" program for many of the most incompetent people, teachers. Just as the incompetent postal workers are being put out of work, the teachers are next. :)
I believe that K-6 is necessary and you do not.
I asked you to provide examples of countries that do not have K-6 education and you play weasel games.
tsk tsk
Lol, Larry, I asked you a question and you still refuse to answer. You asked for an example and I give you one, then you demand more examples. There's only one person weaseling out here and it's clearly you. XD
you never answered your question truthfully and instead blew it off in weasel fashion because you know that your position here is totally illegitimate.
your initial claim is that kids do not need an education and I asked you for examples and you named the US - which does give kids an education.
I asked you to name countries that do not give education since you said it did not matter ...and you
did indeed weasel and still are.
congrats.
Larry, nice try weaseling out again. I never said "kids do not need an education," I said the current education is useless. Nice try conflating the two. Since I noted earlier that reading and writing could soon be obsoleted, kids will still need to learn a spoken vocabulary, they just won't do it in a school. :) Yes, the US gives the education that is worst according to your own standards, yet the US kids grow up to be the richest. You continue to run away from this fact: apparently now your claim is that even though they don't learn much of what you want at all, what little they do learn magically makes them better, so much better than all those Eurasian kids who learned more! Must be wonderful living in Silly Larry world, where you can just pull such contradictory assertions out of your ass and expect people not to laugh at you. :)
If I really thought kids didn't need to learn anything, which you now moronically assert as my position, then there'd be no need for online learning either. The very fact that I say online learning will do a better job means that kids will always learn something, just something vastly different than what the worthless teachers cram down their throats today. Of course, I have to patiently explain these basic logical implications to you because you are either incapable of such basic logic on your own or choose to deliberately lie and misrepresent my position so you can continue running away from your yet-to-appear "defense" of the K-6 curriculum. I'll let you choose which better describes you, incompetent or liar, but the results are the same regardless. ;)
let's get this part out of the way first:
" Sprewell said...
K-6 kids don't need to be taught anything either, as most of what is taught is utterly useless. It's just a "jobs" program for the K-6 teachers. If you think otherwise, please list the useful parts. This will be funny. :)"
this is why I asked you to name countries that did not do K-6.
I did not ask you if they did it poorly or the country was poor even though K-6 was taught.
I asked you specifically to name countries that did not teach K-6 because you said: " K-6 kids don't need to be taught anything either,"
now if you fess up to this then we can go on.
if you continue to weasel this then why should I put up with it?
Larry, this is hilarious how many logical mistakes you keep making. XD
Whether or not K-6 kids need to be taught has nothing to do with how many countries actually get rid of K-6. Obviously most countries have fallen for the K-6 education scam and those who don't are usually so poor that they don't have roads, let alone schools. You can't pull the K-6 scam on someone who has no money. ;) It is hilarious how you always make up these ridiculous absolutes then demand that some other country do it first. If we all used such a ridiculous standard, nobody would do anything different and no change would take place. But it's clear why you do so: you can't defend the worthless K-6 curriculum so you try to change the subject to your loony demands.
Of course the current K-6 curriculum shouldn't be taught, as I keep pointing out almost all of it is useless. How you think that very few other countries have been successful in fighting the teachers' make-work scam says otherwise, who knows.
" Of course the current K-6 curriculum shouldn't be taught, "
you believe this right?
so I'm asking you to give examples of countries who don't teach it and are doing well without teaching it - i.e. doing well in your opinion.
surely in order to hold that opinion you must have something to let you know that it can be not taught ... and the country would do just as well without it - right?
I'm not defending what you call the K-6 scam.
I'm saying that although it's less than perfect by a long shot, it's still needed.
you say no. I ask for something to show that it is not.
I assume there are countries in the world that don't teach K-6 .. er.. have gotten roped into that make-work scam..right?
surely you have knowledge of countries that have done well without it, right?
that's all I was asking you.
I don't defend K-6 methods - that vary widely across the world.
you think no matter what country that it's a scam so I'm asking for you to at the least list a few countries that you think have successfully rid themselves of the K-6 "make work scam".
it's okay if you want to backtrack a bit.. and then we could discuss online learning in K-6 but if you are convinced that K-6 is a scam then I'm only asking you to provide some examples of where it is not done.
"surely in order to hold that opinion you must have something to let you know that it can be not taught ... and the country would do just as well without it - right?"
Sure, the US teaches K-6 badly, at least according to your beloved standardized tests, yet does not only "just as well" but better than anyone else. I have noted that the freer markets here are a big factor also, but obviously not the only reason. If you think K-6 as currently taught is "less than perfect by a long shot, it's still needed" by all means point to what's still needed. You keep ducking that question, presumably because you know your answer will be easily ripped apart. Very few countries haven't fallen for the K-6 scam, as many simply blindly copy the US without thinking things through.
Let me show you how ridiculous your standard of "some other country has to have done it first" is. Suppose I said countries need to get rid of their nuclear weapons. According to your logic, you would then ask for a nuclear power that completely gave up the bomb, "surely you have knowledge of countries that have done well without it, right?" Of course not, they simply blindly copy the US and aren't about to give up that outmoded, warlike way of thinking unilaterally, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't do it.
Nobody asked you to defend K-6 "across the world," I was obviously only talking about the US, where you are free to defend any public school curriculum of your choice, as even the public schools here do vary somewhat from county to county. The only one backtracking here is you, as I never claimed to have a list of countries we could slavishly copy: you demanded a list of perfect countries as you usually do then accuse me of backtracking, all while you backtrack from your defense of K-6. :)
"Sure, the US teaches K-6 badly, at least according to your beloved standardized tests,"
not beloved - necessary just as much as testing is needed by Toyota to find and fix defects AND more importantly to find out which parts of the process itself need improvement.
"yet does not only "just as well" but better than anyone else."
not according to our own proficiency standards... we are worse...
"I have noted that the freer markets here are a big factor also, but obviously not the only reason."
Somolia and many other 3rd world countries have "very" free markets but abject illiteracy and poverty also.
"If you think K-6 as currently taught is "less than perfect by a long shot, it's still needed" by all means point to what's still needed. You keep ducking that question, presumably because you know your answer will be easily ripped apart."
the NAEP tests show where we fall down.
4th grade - only 30% pass defined proficiency standards which very much involve the ability to read and understand modern day concepts and to be able to articulate themselves and to think critically.
the "dreaded" "word" problem best illustrates this. Many, many kids cannot read a word problem..understand what it means...and represent it in a mathematical way and being able to process it into information sufficient to utilize it in a real world way.
/////continue
//////////continue
"Very few countries haven't fallen for the K-6 scam, as many simply blindly copy the US without thinking things through."
about 70% of their kids meet the same standards that 30% of our kids meet.
the results of this mismatch are not now but in the future when jobs become less and less labor and more and more information-based.
"Let me show you how ridiculous your standard of "some other country has to have done it first" is. Suppose I said countries need to get rid of their nuclear weapons. According to your logic, you would then ask for a nuclear power that completely gave up the bomb, "surely you have knowledge of countries that have done well without it, right?" Of course not, they simply blindly copy the US and aren't about to give up that outmoded, warlike way of thinking unilaterally, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't do it."
I think anytime you say that a country is harmed by something that they spend money on - like education - and that the money is wasted and should not be spent - and that the country would be better off without it then I'd like to see some examples - yes.
it has nothing to do with nukes which have no back end "proof" of value such that if it were good..we'll build lots more and if it were not good..we'd do away with them.
they are what they are.. and there are treaties to reduce the numbers since we have many times more than needed to blow up the world a hundred times and over.
"Nobody asked you to defend K-6 "across the world," I was obviously only talking about the US,"
but it's not consistent because you were leaving the impression that K-6 was not needed at all...as opposed to it being done badly.
that's what I disagreed with as I think K-6 is needed - here and in other countries - done better than we are now - obiously.
"where you are free to defend any public school curriculum of your choice, as even the public schools here do vary somewhat from county to county. The only one backtracking here is you,"
Nope.
"as I never claimed to have a list of countries we could slavishly copy: you demanded a list of perfect countries as you usually do then accuse me of backtracking, all while you backtrack from your defense of K-6. :) "
I'm defending the need to perform K-6 education - not bad ways of doing it.
if someone says we don't need it at all. then yes. I want to see some examples of where it is better to not have it at all.
methinks you realize the error here.
it's not a big deal to me as I do believe that K-6 needs to be done better/different than current.
first we need to catch up to the 15 countries that outperform us in 4th grade.
then we need to work on becoming the best in the world as we once were.
and if we fail- we'll end up with more and more grown-up kids who are unemployed and receiving entitlements.
so I believe the importance of K-6 ed is fundamental and critical for our future economic success.
Larry, kids aren't cars with "defects" in their education. Different sets of parents and kids want to learn different things, which is one reason why your one-size-fits-all tests are worthless. The main reason your tests are worthless is that the subjects you test for are worthless, which you tacitly acknowledge by refusing to list even one part of the existing curriculum that you think is worthwhile. :)
ME: "yet does not only "just as well" but better than anyone else."
YOU: "not according to our own proficiency standards... we are worse..."
face palm, 8X "just as well but better" obviously refers to how much richer we are despite doing worse on your "proficiency standards," which is obvious from the context for anyone who can read. Clearly that is a mistaken assumption in your case.
The notion that Somalia and your other unnamed "3rd world countries have 'very' free markets" is leftie stupidity at it's most ignorant. Somalia is riven by fighting between rival govts and warlords, which is the exact opposite of a free market. The fact that you repeat this lie speaks to your great ignorance. Lol, I ask for what specific parts of the K-6 curriculum is still needed and your response is that "only 30% pass defined proficiency standards which very much involve the ability to read and understand modern day concepts and to be able to articulate themselves and to think critically." Right, because that is a specific topic or subject that is taught in schools, "The ability to read and understand modern day concepts 101." XD There is nothing "mathematical" about a word problem, what specific type of word problem did you have in mind and what ability are they lacking to solve it? Of course, they can't "process it into information sufficient to utilize it in a real world way," there are no "word problems" in the real world. :D
"about 70% of their kids meet the same standards that 30% of our kids meet.
the results of this mismatch are not now but in the future when jobs become less and less labor and more and more information-based."
I see, we are the most information-based and richest country in the world here in the US, yet somehow there will be a magical day in the future when our "failed" education will hamstring us? Funny shit as usual, Larry. XD How about you try to explain how all those other countries do better on your beloved tests yet have such backwards jobs and markets that are much less "information-based" to this day?
"it has nothing to do with nukes which have no back end "proof" of value such that if it were good..we'll build lots more and if it were not good..we'd do away with them."
I see, so nukes somehow magically have intrinsic "proof" of value so we don't need any examples of countries that got rid of them, but we have to wait for some poorer country to experiment with education before we change anything. Ridiculous Larry logic at work again! :D
"but it's not consistent because you were leaving the impression that K-6 was not needed at all...as opposed to it being done badly."
Yes, it's not needed at all, which is why when we fail at K-6 tests in the US yet still become rich, that is an indication of how worthless the K-6 curriculum is. Why you think that's inconsistent, who knows.
"if someone says we don't need it at all. then yes. I want to see some examples of where it is better to not have it at all."
That means you think we are all dumb here, so we need some other smarter country to do it first, then we can safely and slavishly copy them. Well, we are already the richest country in the world: we are the ones who should be trying new things and having those poorer countries copy us, not the other way around. Of course, all this is irrelevant as the real issue here is that you simply want the fat check from your teacher wife and could care less about all the kids you screw over in the process. Well, we're about to put that whole scam out business. :)
"first we need to catch up to the 15 countries that outperform us in 4th grade...
so I believe the importance of K-6 ed is fundamental and critical for our future economic success."
Anyone who is clueless enough to continue insisting that standardized tests and the current K-6 curriculum will get us anywhere is too dumb to see the big changes that are coming with online education. I tried to yank your head out of the sand, Larry, but it's clear you have a vested interested in hiding from the future and your repeated weaseling out of the issues, while funny at first, :) is now getting boring so I'm out.
" Larry, kids aren't cars with "defects" in their education."
they have identifiable deficits that can be corrected with focus on the things that they are weak in.
"Different sets of parents and kids want to learn different things, which is one reason why your one-size-fits-all tests are worthless."
there are basic things they have to know with respect to reading and writing and math. all kids need to know the basics because they form the foundation for learning at higher levels.
" The main reason your tests are worthless is ....
guy.. you're being ignorant here.
http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pubs/studies/2011458.asp
better" obviously refers to how much richer we are despite doing worse on your "proficiency standards,"
well they're not mine and we are and we are falling behind in our ability to compete for 21st century jobs.
more reading for you guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_Assessment
"The notion that Somalia and your other unnamed "3rd world countries have 'very' free markets" is leftie stupidity at it's most ignorant."
Somalia is riven by fighting between rival govts and warlords, which is the exact opposite of a free market."
and the opposite of government like we have - right?
there are lots of countries with less government than us..less rules..less laws and restrictions and less or no education.
according to you all those things are better and I'm asking you to provide some examples.
If you do't like Somolia then pick some you do like.
" The fact that you repeat this lie speaks to your great ignorance.
guy - you have NO IDEA what you are talking about.
did you go to school? were you taught in K-6? do you think it was a worthless experience?
do some reading Sprewell:
http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/reading/achieveall.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_Assessment
take a look at the top 10 countries in reading, math and science and notice where we rank.
Sprewell: "there are no "word problems" in the real world."
What do you mean? Of course there are. Here's one:
" Marvin steals Joe's skateboard. As Marvin skates away at 15 mph, Joe loads his 357 Magnum. If it takes Joe 20 seconds to load his piece, how far away will Marvin be when he gets whacked?"
Actually, the answer isn't as straight forward as it seems.
Larry, you have no clue what you're talking about. Of course I attended K-6, I attended it in an Asian country where all the students would trounce American kids on your beloved standardized tests, because the curriculum was so much more difficult and stricter there. When I moved to the US at the end of elementary school, I had a couple years of jacking off because the American kids were still studying stuff I had already done a year or two before. The point is that those Asian schools that you so love, and which I attended, simply force their kids to memorize and regurgitate a more difficult and equally worthless curriculum, which is why it is useless to me to this day. This is why all those Asian kids score better and then grow up to live in poverty anyway, because what they learned is worthless.
Ron, I don't think that's the kind of word problem Larry had in mind, I thought he was talking more about vocabulary analogies or something, but your problem is even more easily debunked. Just because someone can construct a claimed real-world scenario that has math underlying it doesn't mean Joe and Marvin would do any math. The point is that in the real world nobody does that math, they just steal skateboards and shoot each other without knowing any math, and it's ludicrous if you think they would or should. That's why your "word problem" is ridiculous and has no utility in the real world.
Sprewell: "The point is that in the real world nobody does that math, they just steal skateboards and shoot each other without knowing any math, and it's ludicrous if you think they would or should. That's why your "word problem" is ridiculous and has no utility in the real world."
That word problem is intended as a joke, and is part of a list of similar problems, designed to provide relevant examples of everyday math problems to students whose lives might resemble those of the characters in the problem.
Those who solve the problem and give it some thought, realize that unless Joe is very lucky, or an extremely good shot, he won't likely hit Marvin at 440'.
"word problems" are academic exercises that are proxies for real world problems of a similar but often even more complex nature.
It would be like asking someone to explain just how a GPS system actually works or how large a brake pad would have to be to stop a car in 100 feet from 100 miles an hour that weighs 2 tons
or in Sprewells case what happens to your speech once the mike on the phone/computer receives it and then kicks off the process of converting it to digital representations that a computer can process and then return the answer as a visual representation on a screen or a computer "voice".
Most of the stuff that we use today that we take for granted is heavily dependent on math as how we understand how to understand and create the things.
things like pattern recognition that allowed the invention of cameras that can "read" license plates or facial recognition ...etc, etc, etc.. are all based heavily on math and the ability to use math to describe and predict physical phenomena work.
a cruise or ballistic missile that can fly thousands of miles and nail a target a few feet in diameter....
these are the things that are being created in the 21st century and that there are jobs for while the traditional assembly line jobs are quickly being automated and there are less and less jobs.
It used to be a person could graduate from high school and get a factory job and make enough money to support a family, buy a home and car and send the kids to college.
those jobs are going away and the jobs that replace them are primarily service jobs or "knowledge-based" jobs that require a significant command of language and an ability to read and understand difficult concepts.
none of this is possible without good proficiency in reading and math.
so the kids that are growing up now - they're either destined for a service job or a 21st century job in a knowledge-based industry.
or...worse.. a lifetime of receiving entitlements - paid for by the folks who do have sufficient education to get a knowledge-based job.
Sprewell apparently believes little or none of this and, in fact, denigrates the concept of education...as important to economic success.
so I've asked him to name a country or two that shares his beliefs about education and essentially prove his thesis that education ...especially K-6 is just not important to be economically successful since he clearly has little but contempt for the US, Europe and Asia in terms of education.
Larry, I shouldn't bother replying but I can't help it, as you repeat the basic teacher con here. Why would anyone need to know how a GPS system works or how large a brake pad needs to be or what happens to the recorded speech on your smartphone? Most people use all those things and have no idea how they work. Unless they're curious, there's no reason they should, because there is just too much information out there now. As for your "word problems," they are simply another example of worthless math, as I showed with Ron's example.
Yes, there is a lot of math intrinsic to all the computers and planes and other stuff we use, but the beauty of the market is that there are a few math-adept engineers who specialize in writing the CAD software, that allows other largely math-free engineers to design machines and software, that allows you to use those things while having no idea how any of it works. ;) Saying that we all have to learn any of that math beyond counting is just stupid, like saying we all need to learn how to know how to build a washing machine, just in case we have to build one someday.
The jobs that are going to replace manufacturing are service and knowledge-based, but the vast majority of them will require almost no math, because the software will do it for you, and the antiquated English curriculum has never been good at importing "a significant command of language and an ability to read and understand difficult concepts," which is why it will be wholly replaced with something else.
"Sprewell apparently believes little or none of this and, in fact, denigrates the concept of education...as important to economic success."
Sigh, still retailing this lie when I clearly pointed out that online learning will still take place, just with completely different material. Typical of the teacher scam: I point out that the current curriculum is worthless, you then lie and say I'm against all education. I see you've picked up the lies and cons of your teacher buddies well, Larry. I have repeatedly pointed out that the US does horribly on your standardized tests, that are your benchmark of "education," yet the US is the richest country of the world. You have not once said anything about this fact that is deeply damaging to your thesis, because you'd rather lie about what I say and demand that some other country implement a perfect system first, a ridiculous demand by all measures.
The truth is that education most everywhere is a cargo cult. A cargo cult was a group of island villagers who saw the rich Americans bringing tons of goodies to their islands on planes, so when they left they recreated their own "flight towers" with coconuts and palm leaves in the hopes that it would attract a magic plane with more "cargo," ie goodies! :D They were ignorant of how planes and radio communications work, so they simply mimicked what they saw the flight controllers doing to bring the cargo and planes.
Similarly, the teachers point out that a few engineers make good money doing math, so they then say they can get everyone that salary if they just force everyone else to learn math. But the fact is you only need a very small amount of engineers to design washing machines or computers and those people usually gravitate to those subjects on their own. The vast majority of people outsource that narrow technical work to those few engineers and need never know anything about how it works. But the teachers don't care, they still push the education scam on everyone else. A very good argument could be made that this is because the vast majority of teachers are fairly stupid, just like those ignorant island villagers in the cargo cults.
But while that may be true about most, there's an alternative, darker explanation: they don't care whether it's useful or not, they just want a full-employment jobs program and could give a shit who they're scamming in the process. With the ridiculous demands of most teachers' unions these days, I think you can now make a fairly good case for the latter. But their problem is that they have won these battles for so many years, that new technology, ie online learning, can easily put them out of business, by being so much cheaper, just like email is putting the USPS out of business. This will lead to millions of teachers getting sacked, just like newspaper journalists are getting let go left and right for years now, and good riddance. I look forward to the news footage of teachers mewling and wailing in the streets, :) as that is their just dessert for the scam they've pulled for so many decades now.
re: " service and knowledge-based"
knowledge-based..
how do you get to the point where you can read, write and understand online learning?
Do you think a 6-year old can start out "online"?
we actually agree about online learning and I INCLIUDE that for grades 7-12 but K-6 needs teachers.
ideally parents would do some or most but in the world we live in ..some parents themselves are functionally illiterate and unable to do much ...and every kid with a normal IQ that ends up functionally illiterate will be an entitlement burden on others.
Kids with normal IQs but incompetent/unwilling parents can be taught and should unless we want to accept the fact that they'll grow up to be on entitlements or involved crime and ultimately in prison to the tune of 30-40K a year and then turned lose... to harm others again until caught again.
we need K-6 and we need kids to be proficient in reading, writing and arithmetic.
even people in service industries have to know how many hamburger buns to order each week, right?
Sprewell - do you know that about 20-40% of our kids (depending on demographics) cannot even pass the armed forces entrance tests?
In other words, the military cannot even train them how to use modern weapons.
"how do you get to the point where you can read, write and understand online learning?"
I have already pointed out to you earlier in this thread that you don't need to be able to read and write to learn. That was a limitation of 20th century technology, ie pencil and paper and print and chalkboards, one that is now removed by online videos. Do 6-year olds play video games and "learn" how to use them? Then yes, they can start learning online at that age also, even earlier. K-6 may need babysitters- ;) though with cheap cameras in your house, maybe not even that- it doesn't really need teachers. Some parents will teach also, just as many home-school now, others won't have to do anything: all will have their kids learn much more useful stuff online.
"we need K-6 and we need kids to be proficient in reading, writing and arithmetic."
No, we don't, certainly not arithmetic. A kid needs to be aware of what arithmetic represents, that numbers signify quantities, ie how much of something there is, and addition and subtraction signify ways of cutting up those quantities, but that's about it. They'll never have to punch numbers into a calculator, let alone know how to do any arithmetic by hand. As for reading and writing, many will choose to go completely for audio or video learning instead. Not sure what some written sign says, even though you're an English speaker in the US? Point your smartphone at it and it will take a picture and use text-to-voice to tell you verbally what's written. :) Do you really think McDonald's workers make those bun orders? That should all be handled in software, using pricing and ordering algorithms written by a handful of savvy coders.
"Sprewell - do you know that about 20-40% of our kids (depending on demographics) cannot even pass the armed forces entrance tests?"
You do realize that I've said repeatedly that such standardized tests are invariably a waste of time, right? If modern weapons require that the operators do math or read books, those weapons designers are hopelessly clueless. Soon, we'll all be getting around in self-driving cars, on the few occasions when video-conferencing doesn't suffice. If the military guys can't make something even 10% as usable, perhaps they should just give up and cut defense spending by 90%, as Ron Paul would have them do. :)
you're hopeless guy.
I give up. you win!
No Larry, the future wins, and we all win with it. :) Unless of course all the computers go Skynet on us, then the computers win. ;)
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